so, let me explain myself a bit. I've always said I've been curious about the a7r as soon as they announced it's specs (36mp FF with DR!!!), but have always said I don't want to play with anything that needs an adapter to then use the normal FF lenses from traditional DSLRs. Well, their 16-35mm is coming out this month (and I've got one on preorder). Basically, I want to see what this has in comparison to my fuji. I'm mostly happy with my fuji but it's AF isn't amazing, especially not in low light at wedding receptions. I've read TONS of reviews on both the a6000 and the a7 (series). Then sony finally makes the 16-35mm, I go to photo expo and fondle one, and then I see the a7s....
so yeah, lots to think about for me, and it's fall/winter so I can sell of what I'm not using and fund a trial dipping of my toe in sony's waters. Come spring I'll commit to one or the other and sell the rest off.
Fuji for now:
- the XT1 is staying with the 23, 56, 10-24 and 18-135 (basically the pro kit that replaced my canon)
- I need to settle in on ONE small camera for ski season
- I've owned a NEX5 (the first one) since launch, sony's finally corrected a lot of things in the newer bodies...
- The X100 is is going for sure, the XE2 is likely also going
- the XA1 will probably stay with the 18mm, but I might trade it in on an a7r
- I picked up an a7 for ~1200 used. Figured I'd start there since it's the cheapest of the three (the a7r is ~$2k used and the a7s is ~$2250 used) and it's basically a mini 5Diii, 24mp and good ISOs
- eventually if I go sony I'll likely go a7s and a7r, but I'm hesitant on the a7r right now due it it's shutter and AF (but that's not much of an issue how I'd use it)
- I might wait out a price drop on the a7s since it's still retail, or at least find a better used option (and the rebates and trade ins don't work with it)
- lens wise I'm running mostly e mount lenses for now, the 16 (from my NEX5 with the FE adapter), the 16-50PZ, the 24mm (picked up for $600 used).
- I also grabbed the FE 55. Almost went with the E mount 50 but figured I owed the camera one FF lens... This way I also get 2 FLs from it.
- we shoot weddings in mRAW with canons. Using a E mount lens cropped on the a7 is a 10mp file which is the same resolution. You effectively get a 10mp aps-c sensor with that DOF etc but the noise is low because it's only 10mp so it'll work.
- the a7s would be an ideal wedding camera but only once there's lenses for it (the 35mm and an 85mm)
- the only lenses I'd consider adapter are M-mount, but i'd probably go rokinon before I went with a voightlander?
- THe 10-18mm works at 14~16mm with only slight vignette, so I'll be fun to see how it shoots with filters etc.
- I also snagged a used a6000 for dirt cheap from B&H, it's AWESOME and stupid fast....
- AF on the sony's is DEAD silent... Like spooky. It's also no slower than fujis, and seems faster?
- the body is different and sony won't let you put every function you want on a custom button or in their custom menu so you have to memorize where some crap is in the menus
- that said the new menus are MUCH nicer than the old NEX menus...
last night I was bummed with the a7 a bit. But I was using the 16mm 2.8 on it (camera showed up before anything else). Arguably the worse sony lens available and in crop mode... Now that I have the 24mm and 55mm here to play with it's a different story. I'm also blown away by the a6000. It's amazing. The bodies and buttons aren't identically the same but they're closer than the XE2 is to the XT1 so I'll learn. WiFi works a million % better with the sony...
Not sure where this kit will go if/when sony makes the lenses I want. Namely the 35 and 85. Those could be massive making the a7 in crop mode a better choice -vs- the a7s with those dedicated option? With the EVF the crop mode works brilliantly, you wouldn't know it's cropped. It's basically an easy way to get a bigger/better viewfinder on a 10mp NEX that's DSLR shaped and can be boosted to 24mp for scapes!
Ask any questions you've got. Roy, Andy and Dan get in here with input!
Don't forget Andy as well!
Interesting on you getting the 55. Can't wait to see some work with that. But you say 10mp is fine for the wedding work. Now I am wondering if the 50 1.8 in crop mode would work well for me. I would like AF now and then for the Focal length.
yeah, the biggest disapointment for me on the MP count issue is that you can't shoot 10mp RAWs and use the full frame. All the smaller resolutions are JPEG only unless it's done via a different ratio or the crop option.
so for weddings it's either an a7 with the 23 and 55 in crop mode or an a7s with a 35 and 85.
and I've toyed with the idea of getting a samyang or two just to get 1.4 and get those FLs now on the full frame. They're massive but I'm curious how hard it is to MF them. I've always loved my samyang FE and it's stupid easy to AF (so much DOF it's hard to miss).
the other thing with sony is they're missing a good decently fast pancake lens. The 35mm FE is "only" f/2.8. If I were to get an a7s eventually that'd probably work well but for me I really want f/2 or ideally faster. I know pancakes generally only go to f/2 though. But yeah, w/o getting the ~$2800 RX1 there's no small sony option that's also fastish. The 20mm and 16mm 2.8 are very nice and small though, especially on the a6000.
the 28mm f/2 isn't tiny but I guess that's my answer once it comes out? It's also ~42mm on crop or in crop mode? Basically I'm trying to sort out my pocket camera option if I convert. I could keep the 18mm f/2 from fuji on the XA1 or XE2. I could keep an X100 variant. But ideally I'd like a small fast widish lens on either the a6000 or maybe the a7/a7s. The 28mm will work for family shooting. I'm more thinking about skiing now where the a6000 with the 16mm will be good or I suppose the kit power zoom?
oh, and that's the other thing, the 24mm (cropper) and 55mm (FE) are both VERY close to each other in size.
Welcome to the dark side.
A7 has good AF and silent. A7R is loud and slow AF. But it's just so great other than those two things
what do you own Dan?
I've read tons of reviews the last week. my head was spinning with the choice between 100k+ ISOs and a silent shutter, a tiny 5Diii on a budget or the D800e in a pocket that's loud with the lesser AF... The a7r is also ~15mp when cropped so it would have been OK with E lenses too but I figured with it's noise and "worse" AF it's probably the least ideal wedding camera of the bunch if I had just one?
I'm likely close to selling off one of my X-E2s and maybe the 18-55, so I'm checking in on this thread just to see how it plays out. Right now I am only planning to shoot the one wedding I have booked next July, so I can sit on my hands for awhile.
“Sharpness is a Bourgeois concept.” -- Henri Cartier-Bresson
I have the A7R and 55/1.8.
I miss the joystick of my 5diii when it comes to focusing. I got a leather half case for it that helps the ergo.
The files are amazing and flexible. I'm still trying to figure out what setting to use on camera for previews that look the most like LR imports butthurt may be I need to change presets in LR to match picture mode.
also, tl;dr lol
Stupidity angers me.
If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would get done.
In to keep up with this thread as well.
Between the 35 2.8 and 28 2.0, I think I'd be waiting to get the 28 and be able to use the WA and FE adapters as well. In the meantime, seeing that the Sigma ART 30mm 2.8 works down to f/8, I'd at least try that for a while. It's stupid sharp and small.
I'm really intrigued with the AF speed of the A7S and the a6000. The R is not the fastest thing in the world in the dark. I don't have huge problems with this as I most often am shooting MF but it is one thing that I miss from the dSLR days. But I can't go back to an slr OVF.
You mentioned the flexible menus and it reminded me that I cannot put the Viewfinder/LCD switch on the Fn menu. The viewfinder sensor is really sensitive and I often use the tilt-LCD like a waist level viewfinder. Unfortunately it is too close to my body and turns off the LCD for the viewfinder. So I have to sort through the menus. Fuji just handles this better.
You know, the A7R is a funny thing. I can't say that I love using it like I do the X100 cameras. But I am always so very happy with the output. I think that once they put out a few more lenses I will be able to love it. But by then it will be next year and they will OBVIOUSLY have out their new 50mpix medium format camera and I will be complaining about their lacking lens choices for the next two years again.
The evf/LCD is crazy. That was a huge benefit of the external EVF I used on the 5r because I could keep it onnEVF unless I wanted to check somthing on the LCD. Oddly enough, it was said that the oled evf uses more battery than the LCD which never made sense to me.
Does Fuji allow for a button to switch between evf/lcd ?
fuji at least gives you a button that goes immediately into af point selection, still less than idea but better than sony's option.
agreed. Previews look to have noise reduction done on them even though I'm shooting RAW only? I know all cameras show JPEG previews but these seem a bit worse?I'm still trying to figure out what setting to use on camera for previews that look the most like LR imports.
what's the "up to $345" part? Just meaning that it's less if you go for the lesser cameras? I was really hoping they'd stack it from more than one camera. I know adorama will ALSO give you the trade value on the camera as well, so you can get more. But I have three cameras here that I bought for less than $345 (used 5t, original NEX5, used X-A1) so if I could stack them I'd 100% snatch up an a7r now, even if only to sell it. Even with the deal I might anyway, but That price brings them down to ~$16xx and that's what "used like new" goes for on amazon anyway (which are basically open boxes). So there's not much of a deal there.
I programed the c1 button to change AF points. Pretty simple there once you get used to it.
I have no issues with the A7 size. I may just have small hands.
The EVF/LCP flip does suck when shooting from the hip, which I do alot.
The trade in program has always been a scam. It does not make sense as you can make more doing the work on your own.
The Sigma 30 works quite well from what I have seen once you remove the baffle that is held by 3 small screws.
I'm using c3/c2 (bottom left button on the a7/a6000) for af points, but my issue is you press that, then you have to press center to OK keeping the same AF point size, then you can move it? Or is there a way to get to moving it w/o needing to OK the size? edit: nevermind, on the a7 there's an additional function button called "focus setting" which does exactly that AND has a shortcut to center it. Nice. Too bad it's not on the a6000...
it's not the size of the a7 that's the issue on comfort (although it's a tad short for me to be ideal), it's where things are, especially at first. The battery lump/hump/grip has always been perfect for me on the NEX line. The a6000 keeps this shape. The a7 is slightly different. I think it also has to do with the shutter being up on the body and the front wheel being closer to where the shutter is on the a6000. The on/off switch is also easily bumped when learning where that front wheel is. And the menu button is out in left field -vs- all the other buttons but also -vs- all the NEX bodies that either have nothing over there or an EVF there. Basically, it's just different and I'll learn it, but it's especially weird -vs- the a6000 since they're so close but not exact. But they ARE closer than the XE2 and XT1 which is great. The flip side of this is I'm not sure which bodies I'll eventually land on. Right now I'm just using the two least expensive to test the waters. I'm REALLY impressed with the a6000 and don't see how I wouldn't keep it to replace my NEX5 as my pocket camera, and also sports since it's got the best AF and FPS in mirrorless. For $450?
I wish there was an EVF/Monitor button or at least the ability to put that option on the Fn menu...
I'll have to look into the siggy 30...
The trade in isn't a terrible idea if you want new, but yeah, compared to amazon's used it's not worth it really.
The other thing I wish sony would do is 1 of 2 things. I wish the Fn menu had the option to have ANY option on it from the entire menu...
Format the memory card?
APS-C -vs- FF?
Monitor -vs- EVF?
Live view display setting effect on/off? (needs to be on all the time until I'm using flash)
Function menu and custom key setup?
I know this menu is icon driven so that makes it tricky, but for anything w/o an icon use the folder icon and then just put the text on the screen above it as you already do. Ignoring that option give us a "my menu" tab in the menus a la canon. That was amazing with my 5Diii, once I had it setup I literally NEVER went into any other menu screen. Everything either had an external button or could be done via a ONE PAGE menu they let me lay out. This isn't to say I don't have the same complaints with fuji. I know I'll eventually need half these options less as I learn the camera AND I'll learn where the others are.
The focus isn't disappointing me. Not even with the a7 (the a6000 is amazing). The 23mm snaps into focus, the 55 is pretty good but not quite as fast. But they're so silent! Not dead silent like I originally though, but super quiet -vs- fuji. Of course the a7's shutter is louder so it's a trade. Oh and rear button AF works really well with the a7 as well. Fuji's doesn't use phase detect (it will with the next firmware supposedly) so it's slower, but sony's is the same both ways and the button placement is better, at least for me.
oh, how's eye AF work BTW? I haven't read a manual yet but it sounds like a good feature. I have it keyed to a custom button but I can't sort out if I'm supposed to press it or hold it or what.
Oh, and since we have a new thread to deal with the Sony line I must be sure to note how much ****ing Sony ****ing sucks with flash.
The hot shoe is almost but not quite standard size so it may or may not work with your standard flash. I have 3 ISO flashes, one works repeatedly. I think the contacts at the front of the shoe might be shorting and causing issues in some cases. Can't say for certain. Things don't work, wiggle the flash, they work.
I have not found anyone that makes an adapter that goes to a PC cord that will work on my A7R. I ground the front off of one and made it work but I've had it stop working on me twice so something is going weird and I'll probably have to just 3d print one. ****ers.
You see, Sony wants you to use their flashes with their proprietary $50 cable. So I bought a Sony flash and their cable. The longest one they make is about 3 feet. Really ****ing useful, ****ers.
To get around that I bought the outrageously expensive Odin wireless TTL triggers--with two of the $50 adapters necessary to go back to the Minolta hotshoe because nobody believes in the new Sony shoe--and when they talk they're great. Unfortunately when the camera goes to sleep, about half of the time you have to reboot the triggers. ****ers.
In the end Sony's TTL metering is so grossly inferior to Nikon's that it is ****ing worthless. Really, every time I've used it I've stopped and just switched everything back to manual. I shot several thousand product and action shots with two Nikon flashes using optical TTL and they worked flawlessly. Same setups, same rooms, same everything, Sony can't do it.
And added to all of this, the camera will not ****ing trigger a flash with an adapted lens or extension tubes on the A-mount adapter. So my plans to do a bunch of macro tilt-shift shooting with the camera won't happen.
Dear Sony, this sort of stupid **** is why I still keep my Fuji kit around and am going to be mightily tempted to leave you when the new Fuji sensor comes with the 16mm f/1.4 lens. ****ers.
Gee, can you tell that I spent last evening trying to shoot with some flash?
That stinks Andy! I need to get a setup going, but may just settle for the Nissan i40 for now and see how the Yongnuo kit works for it.
I've yet to try flash with mine but obviously need to since it's something I do at weddings. I wonder how well that new sony versions nissin i40 will work since it's designed for their smart mount (or whatever they call it). My neewer's are dumb so they only need one pin but from what you're saying that might even be an issue?
ok, having landscaped with the a7 with the 23/55/10-18: Sony's liveview sucks -vs- fuji. Fuji boosts ISOs much better to give you a better feel for what 30s f/16 at base ISO will look like. I don't need it to be perfect since fuji's is still just enough off you'll blow highlights or block up shadows, but fuji is better there. I've heard the a7s is very good there since it's ISOs go to 400k (boosted but that's what live view uses). Controls are good. It shows a cool little "MM" number on the screen which is how far off you are from "0 EV" or basically where the camera would expose. My other cameras all show the full EV scale with an arrow for the same effect. Both work. Sony shows you NOTHING on the rear LCD during a 30s exposure, fuji counts it down (much better). Sony's option would be fine if they'd turn the damn screen off (saving battery) but nope, turn those pixels on but show me nothing... But here's the real killer. The a7 has ghost flare. I'll show samples later to prove it. And it's bad. I basically can NOT use the a7 as an arch camera and it would present issues for anyone who wants to shoot urban or lighthouses often, at least in darker settings when streetlights ETC are the brightest thing in the scene. I've heard the a7r doesn't do this which would lead me to believe it's sony's AA filter... The a6000 is better but it still does it (weaker AA filter?). Not as bad as the NEX7 I don't think but it's there. Fuji doesn't do this at all (and doesn't have an AA filter). Interestingly though my 5 series canons never did it and they all had AA filters but the 5 series is known for weaker AA filters? So I'm thinking that's it.
I do however REALLY like the sonys. Both the sony and the fuji setup have issues. Different issues but issues. Not sure which I'll land on at this point honestly because sony fixes some of the fuji issues that really bug me but will sony's issues drive me crazy down the road? I also wonder about the AA filter/ghost flare issue with the a7s. Yeah yeah it'd be less of an issue since I'd use it in lower light and more wide open but I would use it for stars which would also include light houses some of the time. This switch will NOT happen if the a7r has the ghost flare.
ok, here's the flare:
left to right it's the A7, XT1, a6000. Those are 100% crops from each full file (ie no crop mode on the a7). a6000 and a7 are both using the 55mm FE using their full frames. a7 shot was earlier in the morning so it was at ISO400. XT1 is using the 18-135mm @ 46.6mm. The flare is also in other shots I have from driving over the bridge (wife was driving). I'll post more samples later but it's an issue...
Also, it was windy and I was shooting 2 cameras so ignore any ultimate sharpness issues you might be seeing. Looks like the a6000 isn't as sharp as the other two but it also looks a bit like shake. I'll do a better test on details in the files in a non windy (probably indoors, definitely on my heaviest tripod). From my first look at it the 16mp fuji files are closer to the 24mp sonys than I would have guessed. Of course going to a 36mp sony file would inevitably beat pretty much anything else out there.
This guy's work with the A7 is really good. Although he is another case of the work maintaining the same look across different camera/lens combos.
i'm glad i dont run into the flare problem. but then again, i'm mostly allergic to stopping down
Dan. You've got an a7r though, it doesn't have an AA filter which is what I think causes the problem. I've seen it wide open already too. I'll post a bunch more samples tonight. I'll fb message you a favor though if you can help prove something for me?
That should show up pretty much with any bright light/dark foreground, right? Because I've done stars a bunch of times especially with the 16-35 which makes really neat ones.
The Redwood and the Shooting Star (Sony A7R, LAEA4 and Sony Zeiss 16-35mm f/2.8) by Andy Henry Photo, on Flickr
i did stars with an adaptor and the A mount 16-35, had no issues.
i'll have some more images soon to see if i get the issue.
ok guys, thanks. I've found a few threads on it:
this is the one where I first saw "ghost flare":http://www.bestmirrorlesscamerarevie...t-the-sony-a7/
some places say it's an issue with just the a7. Some say both the a7r and a7. I'm also wondering about the a7s (these reports were all made before it came out). A lot of the issues also come because of the crappy adapters a lot of the guys were using at first... So it's hard to sort though adapter issues -vs- sensor issues...
ugh, here's an a7r sample:
argh, this is so frustrating, here's a guy with both bodies and the same lens (non sony but whatever).
the a7 has the issue, the a7r does not?
I think this is linked above but here it is inline:
Seems to be a long exposure only problem?? The whacky flaring...
I don't think the time matters but it needs to be stopped down to at least f/8 if no f/11~f/16? But typically when you do that you get long exposures? From all the threads I'm reading about it they never mention time either. Just the aperture.
Here's an a7s shot with zero issues:
DSC02739 by auldz_basunillo, on Flickr
oh, and my neewer TT850 (flash) works both on camera and via my triggers so no worries there.
Also, weird the a7r is ranked better than the a7,for ISOs?http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compa...___949_916_917
The a7s wins for obvious reasons.
Ben... Just stick with Fuji.
Stupidity angers me.
If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would get done.
But....ghost flare, man....Ghost flare!
Stupidity angers me.
If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would get done.
Oh, wait. Forgot to swear. ****ers.
Stupidity angers me.
If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would get done.
"If it weren't for those pesky ghost flares, I would have loved this camera!"
and at the same time.
You guys know by now I like to try new things. Each system swap (except to nikon for 1 year) was to better my kit in some way that was bothering me. I wasn't using my canon because it was too big so I down sized it. Now I'm just looking for the best small option. I had to wait for fuji to make a UWA to make the move work. My sony 16-35 order is in and at the top of the list... So yeah, this made it possible to finally consider it.
Interesting to hear about the ISOs on the a7r. That's promising. The a7 is already slightly above the fuji maybe? More chroma though, but basically both are OK at 6400? The sampling bit makes sense. I really wish sony would allow RAW files at the smaller resolutions like canon does. Turning the a7r into a 15mp body would be great for non landscape shots. I'm just on the fence right now about swapping to an a7r/a7s pair. It'd be a killer set. a7r for landscape/arch where the AF and shutter don't matter. a7s for family and kids where MP don't matter and ISOs and AF are more important. While it's a dream setup it's ~$4k (even buying used) and two bodies. If only the tech could support pixel binning in a way both could be done with a single sensor (and then of course give that body AF and an electronic front curtain).
Of course the lenses are the other part of this equation. The 24mm I have works great when cropped on the a7. The 55 does as well (cropped) and at 55mm it's an amazing lens and gives me the full resolution file. AF is pretty snappy on the a7. If I were to go full on sony I'd really want a 35mm and 85mm pair that aren't much bigger than the current 55 (I know, typically 50s are the smallest lenses on a system) paired with the a7s... There's a part of me that's also very curious about that camera/sensor. Some of the reviews are saying the files are just amazing... The low MP count doesn't scare me really, just the price does right now. I'm also curious about it's AF -vs- the a7 and a7r just because none are the same. The A7s goes to -3EV where the other two stop at 0. But the a7 is the only one with the PDAF sensors on the sensor...
How are the A7/r/s EVF's and high is performance compared to the XT1? I've come to rely on the XT1 viewfinder for manual focus. And I like the iso noise when it is there.
The XT1 evf is huge and very detailed. Think 1DX viewfinder huge. It makes manual focus a lot easier for me. It has colored focus peaking. But I don't use any of the MF helper modes.