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Stime187
01-13-2008, 01:58 AM
So, I found an ND filter from B+W that's rated at 3.0 which by their standards is 10-stops of neutral density (I believe)...

B+W 77mm 10-stop ND Filter:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=8120&is=REG

I want to pick one up, but they're out of stock. So, my first question is, anyone know where I can get one or something similar? I know there's a variable Singh-Ray out there but its a little pricey for me right now.

Also, I simply wanted to start a thread discussing these and similar filters. I think this is a tool that once I get past the learning curve, could be an awesome element to add to my bag of tricks in a sense.

I think long exposures in landscape photography can add an awesome dynamic element to an otherwise bland image... an idea I'd love to explore further.

6 minutes @ f/8:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j187/stime187/mountain_serenity_6034_web.jpg

So yeah, feel free to discuss, ask questions, etc. about this type of stuff in here.

tardypizza
01-13-2008, 09:36 AM
That seems much more affordable than the Singh Ray, although I wouldn't mind having either to play. It seems that it might be easier to nail the exposure with a constant 10 stop, rather than the variable where you have to play more guess work with how many stops to adjust for.

another
01-13-2008, 09:58 AM
I'd been looking into this sort of thing for awhile ... I ended up going with the cheapest and most flexible option. But I won't tell you what it is until the end :)

As you've probably found there are a handful of screw-on solid NDs. There's a 9 stop one that seems to be the industry standard (I totally forget the company at the moment!) and it costs a little over $200. When I learned of Singh-Ray's Vari-ND I figured that was the answer. The "vari" let's you dial in the stops (from 1 to 8) so you can compose the scene at 1 then dial all the way down to 8 to get the long exposure. Sooo much better than just a solid 9 (or 8) stop filter. Once you try a few of these you realize composition is impossible with that much ND in front of the lens, even in mid day sun. You need some way to compose & meter, then adjust the ND without moving the tripod. Sure you can do it with a 9 stop solid ND if you are careful, but did you just nudge the tripod with your leg while you were leaning over screwing the filter on? Hmm.

Also with the screw ons there is the dark corner issue with ultra-wide angles. Put one on your Sigma 10-20mm at 10mm and you'll get dark corners. Even the thin mount Vari-ND will show up in the frame.

So, my thinking was that I needed to be able to compose and adjust the ND strength and insure that I never have dark corners with any lens. My first decision was to use Z Pro filters instead of screw on. Then I just had to look for the best, cheapest solid NDs ... and you and I already use these, Scott. I bought 2 Hitech 1.2 solid NDs. (that's 4 stops each) $66x2 from 2filter.

I can wave the camera around metering without any filters, change settings, setup on tripod, align a single filter (4 stops), do a quick test shot to look at the histogram, adjust, slide down the second filter and fire away. (note: make sure both filters are in the holder when you do the initial setup on the tripod, just keep one raised all the way up and out of the frame. You don't want to nudge the tripod and screw up composition trying to squeeze that second filter in)

So now I've got the ability to take shots with 4 or 8 stops of ND (not just 9 or whatever from a typical screw on ND). I have the composition benefits you get from the Vari-ND, but paid half the price and won't have dark corners at ultra-wide.

\m/

btw, nit-pickers may point out that light can leak in if you're using a filter holder. Yeah, so what? Adjust by a half stop. That's what metering & manual mode are for. Most people forget to put a cover over the eye piece which probably causes more ruined photos than adjusting for light leakage around the filters anyway.)

bikefreax
01-13-2008, 11:01 AM
I just got a x4 ND filter yesterday to help with my long exposures of running water. The only problem is it looks like it made everything a blue tint. I am a newbit to the digital domain so any help is appreciated.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m228/bikefreax/P1120236.jpg

Colorblinded
01-13-2008, 11:11 AM
I have the 9 stop Hoya X400 filter. Look for one of those, it's about $150 though for a 77mm filter vs the much cheaper B+W. It is multicoated however.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/155266-REG/Hoya_018120_77_mm_Neutral_Density.html

Colorblinded
01-13-2008, 11:14 AM
btw, nit-pickers may point out that light can leak in if you're using a filter holder. Yeah, so what? Adjust by a half stop. That's what metering & manual mode are for. Most people forget to put a cover over the eye piece which probably causes more ruined photos than adjusting for light leakage around the filters anyway.)

True light coming in the eye piece will screw up your exposure, but it won't affect the photo itself. Light leaking around the filters would likely create a drop in contrast.

Stime187
01-13-2008, 11:15 AM
anotherd80, I knew you'd be joining this discussion as I remember your threads and posts about this. What you described is essentially my only concern with a 10-stop screw on filter, having to compose without the filter on, then attach it. This would be extremely difficult in some of the places I shoot but I think it'd be doable and its worth a shot for $100. I just need to find someone to pick one up. I have serious ideas for this thing...

bikefreax, the tint is something you're going to run into when shooting water scenes in the shade. They always record "cool" or blueish like that which is the result of a low white balance. Do you shoot in RAW or JPEG? If RAW, you can just adjust the white balance slider or use the "set white point" feature on the water to get the white balance much more accurate/realistic.

Stime187
01-13-2008, 11:16 AM
I have the 9 stop Hoya X400 filter. Look for one of those, it's about $150 though for a 77mm filter vs the much cheaper B+W. It is multicoated however.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/155266-REG/Hoya_018120_77_mm_Neutral_Density.html

Thanks! I'll definitely be on the lookout for one of those. $150 isn't bad and I'm really itching to try this thing out... mid-day long exposures have been in my head for quite a while now.

Oh nice, BH has those in stock now I just have to pull the trigger.

Colorblinded
01-13-2008, 11:19 AM
It's multicoated, which IMO is something that's needed. I wouldn't spend $104 on an uncoated filter.

Stime187
01-13-2008, 11:21 AM
It's multicoated, which IMO is something that's needed. I wouldn't spend $104 on an uncoated filter.

What exactly is the advantage to multicoated vs. not?

Colorblinded
01-13-2008, 11:36 AM
Basically the coatings are for reducing reflections. Multiple coatings allow reflectance for various wavelengths to be reduced even further.

Reducing the reflection makes the lens more optically efficient. How much is reflected depends on how different the refractive index of the medium the light is entering the lens from is compared to the refractive index of the lens itself. Although that amount of reflection isn't huge for most glasses. It also helps increase contrast by blocking stray light.

distorto
01-13-2008, 11:37 AM
I just got a x4 ND filter yesterday to help with my long exposures of running water. The only problem is it looks like it made everything a blue tint. I am a newbit to the digital domain so any help is appreciated.



if you are using PS, you can desaturate your blues or cyans to take away the cool WB.

Stime187
01-13-2008, 11:38 AM
Basically the coatings are for reducing reflections. Multiple coatings allow reflectance for various wavelengths to be reduced even further.

Reducing the reflection makes the lens more optically efficient. How much is reflected depends on how different the refractive index of the medium the light is entering the lens from is compared to the refractive index of the lens itself. Although that amount of reflection isn't huge for most glasses. It also helps increase contrast by blocking stray light.

Interesting. Glad my new polarizer is multi-coated then. Thanks for the response/explanation.

Colorblinded
01-13-2008, 11:40 AM
Actually I was wrong about how much light reflects. For some reason I was thinking of a filter as only one surface. Both sides of the filter must be coated as light can reflect off both sides. The amount of light reflecting could be 7-10% depending on the type of glass.

Colorblinded
01-13-2008, 11:42 AM
if you are using PS, you can desaturate your blues or cyans to take away the cool WB.You can also adjust white balance in the RAW converter if you are shooting RAW.

Theoretically your filter should be neutral so white balancing performed before attaching it should be OK.

mkfotos
01-13-2008, 06:07 PM
Interesting discussion. I've yet to get ND's or even a single CPL.



bikefreax (http://newschoolofphotography.com/forum/member.php?u=163), et al, when shooting landscapes there's no excuse for not shooting your final image(s) in RAW. JPG is fine for checking exposure, etc. but don't skimp on your final version by shooting JPG.

bikefreax
01-13-2008, 06:17 PM
Interesting discussion. I've yet to get ND's or even a single CPL.



bikefreax (http://newschoolofphotography.com/forum/member.php?u=163), et al, when shooting landscapes there's no excuse for not shooting your final image(s) in RAW. JPG is fine for checking exposure, etc. but don't skimp on your final version by shooting JPG.


I am a newbie and know nothing about shooting in Raw and what to do with them after shooting.

SlvrScoobie
01-14-2008, 09:04 PM
NDs are stackable, why not buy 3 ND3's? besides the obvious extra glass, I think it would be cheaper. Kodak makes a ND4.0 (13 stops)

http://www.adorama.com/KKWFND400.html

Oh and we sell it too
kodak 4.0 ND filter :O
http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=2928
I think ill get one with my employee discount =D

Stime187
01-14-2008, 09:08 PM
NDs are stackable, why not buy 3 ND3's? besides the obvious extra glass, I think it would be cheaper.

The more you stack the more image quality is degraded and vignetting occurs. I intend to shoot profitable images with the setup once I get it figured out, so cost I'd like to spend the money on a good quality filter.

As for the posted filter, 13-stops is a bit much actually for me. If I'm already getting a 2-3 minute exposure at say 9-stops, 13 will put me into the hour long exposure range.

jacobsen1
01-14-2008, 11:16 PM
Scott, so nine stop is minutes in daylight then?

I've got some fun ideas for long exposures that are much easier to implement in the daylight anyway. NDs would be much easier to work with...

Stime187
01-14-2008, 11:31 PM
Scott, so nine stop is minutes in daylight then?

I've got some fun ideas for long exposures that are much easier to implement in the daylight anyway. NDs would be much easier to work with...

I figure I can get 1/2 second in late afternoon light at ISO 50 on the 5D.

So...

1. 1/2 s
2. 1 s
3. 2 s
4. 4 s
5. 8 s
6. 16 s
7. 32 s
8. 64 s
9. 128 s

Then, the stand rule of thumb is to add a stop for reciprocity (just what I've heard), so you're looking at between 2-4 minutes I'd say. My goal is to be able to get around a minute per exposure.

Colorblinded
01-14-2008, 11:35 PM
Reciprocity failure in my experience isn't a very large issue with the digital sensors. They have a much more controlled response to light and follow reciprocity much better than film.

Stime187
01-14-2008, 11:37 PM
Reciprocity failure in my experience isn't a very large issue with the digital sensors. They have a much more controlled response to light and follow reciprocity much better than film.

I know I didn't get my best exposure in the above shot until I overexposed it a bit from what I roughly calculated though that easily could have been because of a ton of other reasons. But at any rate, that should be something to keep in mind, not necessarily a rule to go by. I should have made that more clear above.

Thanks.

Stime187
01-22-2008, 04:51 PM
Just picked up the 77mm 10-stop B+W Multi-coated ND Filter... I'll post some results when it shows up and I can get to play with it. Should be fun.

Colorblinded
01-22-2008, 05:32 PM
Which filter is that? Got a link to it? As far as I can tell their 10 stop filter is uncoated.

Stime187
01-22-2008, 06:32 PM
Carl, here's the link...
http://www.amazon.com/77mm-3-0-1000x-Neutral-Density-Filter/dp/B0012LO1UG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1201038608&sr=8-2

From the link:

B & W 77mm ND 3.0-1000x #110 Neutral Density Filter. Type: #110 Neutral Density. Size :77 mm. Grade :3.0 (exposure adjustment = 10 stops, transmits 0.1% of light). Filter Factor :Approx. 1000. Multi-Coated :No. Rotating :No. Effect :Reduce the amount of light reaching the film. Application :To use high speed films in bright sun. Color Temperature: No change. Construction :Schott Glass. Front Filter Thread Size :77 mm.

So, hopefully that's right and not a typo. But I'd be okay with it either way...

Colorblinded
01-22-2008, 06:52 PM
If you look at the way that's arranged it's saying "Multi-Coated :No." and then saying "Rotating :No." I know it doesn't rotate, and B&H says it isn't multicoated as well so I'd say this again confirms it's not multicoated (I don't even know if it has a single coating).

Personally, if I were you, I'd cancel if for something that is multi-coated. That's just me though.

Stime187
01-22-2008, 06:55 PM
If you look at the way that's arranged it's saying "Multi-Coated :No." and then saying "Rotating :No." I know it doesn't rotate, and B&H says it isn't multicoated as well so I'd say this again confirms it's not multicoated (I don't even know if it has a single coating).

Personally, if I were you, I'd cancel if for something that is multi-coated. That's just me though.

I'll look into the pros/cons, but the polarizer I've used for nearly every shot I've taken wasn't multi-coated, so I don't really think it's too big of a deal for me.

Colorblinded
01-22-2008, 06:58 PM
Are you investing in quality gear or just what you can get? :lol:

thechickencow
07-08-2008, 07:00 PM
Bump, I just ordered a 10-stop, we'll see what I can put it to use for.

user errors
07-08-2008, 07:05 PM
You had me fooled into thinking Scott was back :lol:

thechickencow
07-08-2008, 07:06 PM
He's probably out using his filter.

tardypizza
07-08-2008, 10:31 PM
Bump, I just ordered a 10-stop, we'll see what I can put it to use for.

Sweet! I'm totally gonna get one too when I order my 40D.


He's probably out using his filter.

And sleeping with coeds.

thechickencow
07-08-2008, 10:47 PM
aww yeah.

SlvrScoobie
07-09-2008, 09:05 AM
yeah, i love the 10stop B+W, coated or not.
Only problem i had is that the white balance algorithms get a little wonky when your incoming light levels are so low.. Haven't played with it in a while, maybe ill finally get out and use it tomorrow on the overpass near my work (NJ TPK runs under it, looking directly west which would be awesome for a sunset shot.. just never go out and do it!)

thechickencow
07-11-2008, 08:51 PM
I am wondering if I need to know anything special when I use this, or just go for it.

And 10 stop I will probably have to compose then screw it on, then calculate exposure?

SlvrScoobie
07-11-2008, 09:04 PM
Naw, just gotta be really patient, then your eyes will adjust.. youll be able to just see enough in most situations.

thechickencow
07-12-2008, 05:16 AM
I wonder if live view will be able to work with it.

I'm excited to try it out.

ride5000
07-12-2008, 06:46 AM
have you guys ever taken two linear polarizers and mounted them together to net you a variable ND? when the axis of polarization on them are aligned you'll have a very light polarizer, and when perpendicular you'll have pretty much zero transmission.

user errors
07-12-2008, 10:26 AM
I didn't know you can mount rotating filters on top of each other

ride5000
07-12-2008, 06:20 PM
i don't know if it's physically possible to stack them or not, which is why i'm throwing it out there. maybe someone with an LP can chime in?

user errors
07-12-2008, 08:49 PM
I don't think my 58mm CP has threads for another filter

ride5000
07-12-2008, 09:32 PM
I don't think my 58mm CP has threads for another filter

cp wont work, either. for it to work like a solid ND they both need to be linear.

one linear and one cp would give a pattern. two cps won't do anything differently than one cp.

user errors
07-12-2008, 09:42 PM
I understood what you meant, I was just pointing out that it rotates and does not have additional threading.

blcknspo0ln
07-22-2008, 10:29 PM
I'm curious why you guys are using circular thread-in ND filters? From nikonians, fred miranda, etc. I've noticed everyone is using a Cokin type filter system with 100mm graduated ND resin filters. IMO I think the investment in a cokin system is worth it if you are trying to use ND and other filters on various sized lenses. I'll be getting the Cokin P-wide + .6 (2 stop) ND with a 77 and 67 step ring to start. Anyone else with this system or similar?

Markitos
07-22-2008, 10:32 PM
Um, nobody is using screw in GRADUATED ND filters... this thread is about a 9 stop NEUTRAL DENSITY (i.e., sunglasses for your lens) filter.

Everyone that uses grad. ND filters, ASFAIK, uses a cokin holder with various brands of GRAD ND filters.

thechickencow
07-22-2008, 10:33 PM
Yeah, I think there's a few of us with cokin or similar holders for our grad nd's. I've got hitech filters, I think Stime has singhray's, not sure what others use.

ModernMuseum
09-23-2008, 11:52 AM
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

Geez, I'm seriously thinking about ordering this thing....

wrxfactor
09-23-2008, 12:10 PM
For that kind of money, I want a lens! I know a lot of work goes into that thing, but damn! Maybe if I was making money or really loved landscape photography.

Stime187
09-23-2008, 01:15 PM
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

Geez, I'm seriously thinking about ordering this thing....

Why?

The reason I didn't buy it is that it's a) not strong enough for what I want to do, b) WAY over-priced (but I'm sure it's nice) and c) 'varied' which just means more stuff to break.

I'll stick with my 10-stop, non-varied any day for a third of the price.

PhatheadWRX
09-23-2008, 01:56 PM
It honestly looks like two linear polarizers on top of each other...

edit: just saw ken's post at 39

Stime187
09-23-2008, 02:04 PM
Every time I mention it in a presentation it never fails that someone wants to come up afterwards and tell me how to make an adjustable one... and, I think it involves something like that, two linear ones put together.

PhatheadWRX
09-23-2008, 02:13 PM
Scott, if someone were thinking about getting a good all purpose ND screw on filter, do you have any suggestions? How many stops would be the best bang for the buck?

It'd also need to work on an UWA (sig 10-20)

Stime187
09-23-2008, 02:23 PM
Scott, if someone were thinking about getting a good all purpose ND screw on filter, do you have any suggestions? How many stops would be the best bang for the buck?

It'd also need to work on an UWA (sig 10-20)

4-stop... and virtually any name brand would be fine. I would advise you to get a 'slim mount' if possible as well if you'll be using it wide.

They are good tools to have in the bag for certain shots, that's for sure.

PhatheadWRX
09-23-2008, 02:23 PM
thanks!

thomps6s
09-23-2008, 02:25 PM
I'll stick with my 10-stop, non-varied any day for a third of the price.

I agree, but I only have a measly 9 stop. ;)

thomps6s
09-23-2008, 02:26 PM
Also, I believe you need a circular polarizer and a linear polarizer stacked to make a DIY Vari-ND.
It has been discussed here. Keep in mind if you use cheap ND filters, color casting can become a factor.

edgephoto
09-23-2008, 09:38 PM
good info guys! ciotti and I were just talking about NDs (graduated and non) last night - he didn't know about them at all, and I had just barely found out about them recently from posts on this board referring to their use. seems like an awesome tool to play around with, I really like doing long-exposure shots so I'm gonna have to get my hands on a few of these.

I am thinking they will be especially useful for daytime photography in the city, where I can never seem to get my shots with no one in the frame (too many pedestrians). a long exposure should ghost them out enough to make them less distracting, or at least make them a cool-looking element that adds to the shot rather than distracting from it...

thomps6s
09-23-2008, 09:52 PM
good info guys! ciotti and I were just talking about NDs (graduated and non) last night - he didn't know about them at all, and I had just barely found out about them recently from posts on this board referring to their use. seems like an awesome tool to play around with, I really like doing long-exposure shots so I'm gonna have to get my hands on a few of these.

I am thinking they will be especially useful for daytime photography in the city, where I can never seem to get my shots with no one in the frame (too many pedestrians). a long exposure should ghost them out enough to make them less distracting, or at least make them a cool-looking element that adds to the shot rather than distracting from it...


Edge -
Here is a technique you might not be aware of, but will do exactly what you want with no filters at all.
http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-stacks-in-photoshop-cs3-extended/

edgephoto
09-23-2008, 09:56 PM
Edge -
Here is a technique you might not be aware of, but will do exactly what you want with no filters at all.
http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-stacks-in-photoshop-cs3-extended/

wow. that's awesome. I had no idea that existed! totally useful. he did it hand-held too!

thanks alot man - gotta try that!

ModernMuseum
09-24-2008, 12:07 AM
A circular and linear polarizer might be the more economical way to go since they can also be used independently.

Stime - I had no idea you had more than a 10-stop.

The Singh-Ray IS more economical than buying two or three grad ND's like some people here have done. I would venture to say that the usability of it would make it more economical than two individual filters.

Stime187
09-24-2008, 12:58 AM
A circular and linear polarizer might be the more economical way to go since they can also be used independently.

Stime - I had no idea you had more than a 10-stop.

The Singh-Ray IS more economical than buying two or three grad ND's like some people here have done. I would venture to say that the usability of it would make it more economical than two individual filters.

My ND is a 10-stop, the Singh Ray is a variable 3-8 stop ND filter.

As for being more economical, you're comparing apples to oranges. The Singh-Ray is a circular ND filter (neutral density) w/ varying strength. A grad. ND is a totally different animal with totally different uses.

Hope that helps clear up any confusion. :)

ModernMuseum
09-24-2008, 01:26 AM
Oh. I thought the SR was a 10-stop.

I guess I don't know the difference between circular and graduated. I guess what I'm looking for is just a ~10 stop graduated ND filter. I already have a 2-stop (4X), but can't really do that much with it.


edit: actually, i'm reading a bit on them now, but don't really know if i need a graduated ND filter or not.

Also, would the combination of a circular and linear polarizer equate to a graduated ND filter?

thomps6s
09-24-2008, 09:13 AM
Read up on Graduated ND filters here

http://www.newschoolofphotography.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4091

and here

http://www.newschoolofphotography.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5497

PhatheadWRX
09-24-2008, 09:47 AM
Keith, a CPL and LPL would not make a grad ND, but a variable constant ND. Still I think you are correct that buying both would be an advantage as you could use the CPL on the filter by itself.

edit - after thinking, the big downside to this would be calculating each ND stop mark